Lovely Looking Christians
Sunday, August 19, 2012 at 4:31PM About once every 5 years some young Christians come to our village in the summer and walk around all the houses asking if we want to let God into our lives. I'm not sure if it is intentional on the part of the Evangelical church which sends them, but they are always female, always quite young and there's always one white girl and one black girl. I'll be honest, they were both strikingly good looking young women, I'm an old bloke but I can still appreciate female beauty from a safe distance.
We saw them walk past the house this morning and I commented to the Mrs 'ahh, lovely, the Christians are here again.'
She asked me to deal with them, she gets a bit moody with the whole religion thing, she was raised Catholic and I think the evangelical sector gets her a bit wound up.
I'm always most polite when they come to the door, I always wait for them to finish their schpeel then explain that I'm a happy atheist and wish them all the best.
This morning however, I was pruning an overgrown Kifsgate Rose (if you know anything about this particularly aggressive, skin tearing but beautiful plant, you'll know there's no other type, they just overgrow) and the two young women walked right past me. They smiled, I smiled back, but then they carried on. They didn't even try to convert me. They went to all the neighbouring houses, but they ignored ours.
I was a bit miffed to be honest, maybe we've got a mark in their special book saying 'atheist devil worshiper.'
Okay, so I didn't want to go through the tiresome discussion again about whether I had ever considered letting God into my life, but it's not fun being ignored.
So here's my question, in terms of efficiency, what percentage of people actually respond to such Christian cold calling, is it worth them trolling around small Cotswold villages to try and get people to come to their church and give them money, sorry, pray. I meant to say pray.
Although I am an atheist, I'm a sort of Church of England stye one, not an evangelical one. I couldn't be bothered to try and convert anyone to my way of thinking. I can barely be bothered to think about it at all. The whole debate just doesn't really hold my attention.
Reader Comments (25)
I usually do the same as you, minus the 'atheist' part. Most 'aggressive' so far are the Church Of Latter Day Saints with their book of Mormon. Pesky gits - I'm pretty open to religion itself, catholic dad, Church of England mother and my aunt, is a Jehovah's witness - I prefer to believe in people, they too are capable of miraculous acts such as love, generosity and procreation - and you can actually wave your fist at them if they do something bad.
If the young ladies were Jehovah's Witness then there may have been a couple of reasons they didn't interrupt you. Firstly, we are not calling to convert people, just have conversations, often about spiritual matters but not always.
If you looked extremely busy and/or flustered they may have decided its better not to interrupt you. In the past if someone at you home had requested we do not call on you again, that would be noted on the record of your street so they missed you out (admittedly this is missed sometimes, I have accidentally called on somebody only to realise as they answer I shouldn't be calling and have apologised and left).
The reason we call is we follow what Jesus commanded his followers to do by calling from door to door redeclaring the Good News. Its as much to help us as it is the people we call on.
Saying that it is very effective and is practised worldwide (if you believe in it then you're going to believe God can direct your efforts).
There is a collection box discretely placed in our Kingdom Halls for those who wish to donate but no plate is passed or anything like that. Personally when I donate I do not like anybody being around me.
Hope this helps explain a bit.
Craig.
What is the likelihood that a 5 minute, uninvited, unwelcome, judgemental lecture on my doorstep that will probably happen when I am already extremely busy, is going to make me abandon a belief system that I have formulated over the past 40 something years?
Very slim.
In fact I'd go so far as to say not a hope in their mythical Hell.
I don't buy dusters from doorstep salesmen so definitely not buying their idea of how to live my life.
I confess that I am not as tolerant of religion as you are, Bobbert, and genuinely admire the courage of Dawkins, Hitchens, et.al., to openly question and criticize unscientific, unreasonable, unproven beliefs.
Like everyone else, my attitude is obviously the result of my own experiences. I spent many decades as an active Mormon, but finally had to admit to myself that, according to all the archaeological, historical, and biological DNA evidence, the Nephites never existed. Period. Joseph Myth was a consummate liar who made the Book of Mormon up. Leaving that cult proved to be the most disrupting, painful, discouraging crisis of my entire life. As the cult explicitly tells Mormons in their temple ceremony, they are to believe that "Satan has me in his power. "
The point is that, in the 21st century, religious beliefs should no longer be sacrosanct, off-limits, tabu subjects. They deserve as much scrutiny and open discussion as any concept, theory, philosophy, or political opinion. Simply because they "feel" good to some people, and provide them "comfort," does not make them true. More importantly, they have real effects on real people in the real world.
This is... Why Candidates' Religious Beliefs Are Important
The Mormons round our way are usually pretty friendly, although they often ask if you "need help with anything", which sounds a bit cryptic. A couple of years ago they were always male, but now I spot the odd female pair knocking about too. They're often to be seen in the local library, making collages from photocopied pictures of Jesus - bit sad when you realise they're in their early 20s. Ah well, to each his own.
In answer to your question - I wonder if Christians do it not so much to increase their numbers as simply because they are told they have to 'bear witness'. Maybe I'm naive, maybe they do really want the money, sorry I mean converts.
In any case my Dad would often invite them in for an argument, which he was very good at. We saw many a pale crestfallen Mormon/Jehovas's Witness/Evangelist retreating half an hour later down our drive, apparently in an agony of self doubt.
btw yes, Kifsgate roses are cruel buggers.
"Cows don't dance...but they still like being asked."
I`m with your good lady Robbert. I live among some of the most devoted american backwoods hillbilly christians,so I have a very hard time being polite when they interrupt my Saturday morning TV shows. That would be British comedies on PBS (great stuff) since Bugs Bunny was declared to extreme for human consumption,and the cartoons are just commercialized arbiters of pop culture cool now.... ok thats another rant. i`ll stop there. But I am happy that they don`t come to my door anymore. It saves me the bother and spares them the rejection. Some do come with their handouts or invitations to some function or other, but I guess the f`k off look in my eyes tells them their handouts are going into the trash and not to consider any further conversation.
BTW Yes I still like Bugs Bunny. I grew up with those toons. They`re good friends of mine. I`ll be 41 years old on Wedsday, but if I ever get too old to enjoy a good laugh, I`ll call it quits.
As a JW myself, I just wanted to echo Craig's earlier comments as being accurate and correct. They were most likely Jehovah's Witnesses.
Next time they're around, stop and have a friendly chat with them. Ask lots of questions. You may find you are pleasantly surprised.
They will be back! You are now a challenge! They will sent your name an address to other religions and they will try to covert you! Go into lie mode and tell them your in the
church of England and have a nice day! I liked the cow joke in the comments!
Adios
>So here's my question, in terms of efficiency, what percentage of people actually respond to such Christian cold calling, is it worth them trolling around small Cotswold villages to try and get people to come to their church and give them money, sorry, pray. I meant to say pray.
Well speaking as a Catholic Christian in America I find your situation interesting. Evangelicals here don't usually go door to door. They may pass out tracts on the street or in the Subway. But door to door? It has never happened to me.
That is mostly what the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormons here do. The JW's in my experience have no problem attacking what you believe or don't believe & they are off putting. They are set in their ways and in 20 years of dealing with them they don't seem to want to change that.
The Mormons OTOH have better marketing skills in my opinion. They won't attack your beliefs as much as try to persuade you too theirs.
Does any of this work? Well Evangelicals, Mormons and JW are fast growing religions. So yes it obviously does work. For the serious evangelist planting a seed is all your tracts or visits are suppose to do. The Holy Spirit is suppose to do the rest. Also reason dictates being off putting tends to turn people off.
What percentages? I'd need a viable statistical model to answer that & even then I have not studied Statistics since college.
Speaking personally the JW's have stopped coming to my door. I guess they have marked me in their book as militant Romanist. The Mormons on the other hand still didn't send me that free video I tried to order from them. I guess when I told the guy on the phone I didn't want to talk to any missionaries he forgot.
Cheers.
I'm quite a keen Christian and don't always feel the need to talk 'shop'. If I'm at the pub having a beer or two I'm happy to talk about anything from football to time travel. I only share the gospel if I feel the conversation heading down that path. In those situations you can usually tell how a person will respond to it.
The thing is, I don't shove it down peoples throats if they aren't interested. Nor do I go around bagging out Atheists, Jews, or Muslims; and I expect the same courtesy from them.
Al.
Good points there Al. St Francis said "Preach the gospel always & when needed use words".
(OTOH some have claimed St. Francis said "Never give a sucker an even break" but we will leave that in the no comment Red Dwarf Rimmer file).:-)
It's good advice for any sane activist advocating a world view. Christian Missionary preaching the Word or a liberal activist speaking on the virtues of electrical cars.
BTW I am so psyched for Season X!
Keep up the good work there Bobby!
Cheers.
I am completely in love with Jesus. A Christian by 'title' but I hate titles.
I met you recently on a day out at Kelmscott.... I'm not aware that religion came up in conversation so I doubt anyone knew that fact about me that day.
I don't believe in pushing my beliefs on other people. If people ask me about it, I will happily discuss it, otherwise I feel we are much enter off showing love than talking about it.
I too am an atheist but I always invite the CCC in for a cuppa. (Cold Calling Christians.)
I do enjoy a good chat with them. My wife, on the other hand, hates it when I start talking to them. I don't know why because I'm always polite. Anyway, they stopped coming to our previous house for some reason - it couldn't have been the tea. They haven't learned yet in our new house, so I'm still inviting them in.
The funny thing is, when they start talking about the bible, I seem to know more about it that they do and I can always get them to the point of admitting that "ah well, that's just allegorical" to which the reply is usually "how do you know which bits are allegorical and which are to be followed? You cannot pick and choose if it is god's true infallible word".
They soon finish their tea and leave after that. But I did have a couple recently who told me that "the reason there are mistakes in the bible is because Satan is loose in the world and is changing it" - really? Surely if it's god's word, Satan wouldn't be able to change it? Then they left.
I don't buy stuff from cold callers of any kind, door to door, telephone, email etc, but I am always polite to them, it's just a job. But religion, well, it's fair game!
The worst ones are the street preachers. I normally get dragged away from those before I can reply to their pitch, but one did manage to grab hold of me, literally, when I told him I was an atheist and fortunately (for me) my wife had nipped into a shop. I had a great time with him - a young Earth creationist - who was desperate to convince me that the World was only 6,000 years old and that there was no such thing as evolution and dogs never descended from wolves, they were always dogs, and radioactivity wasn't real and carbon doesn't come in different forms and can't be used for dating etc etc.
And, of course, evolution is just a theory - at which point I pointed out that so was gravity but he did seem to be pretty well stuck to the ground. Then my wife removed me from the scene saying "leave that poor man alone!"
I treat them as people, misguided or whatever, they are still people. It's their ideas and dogma that gets ridiculed - on the grounds that when you actually say it out loud, or think about it, it just doesn't compute!
Cheers,
Norm.
>The funny thing is, when they start talking about the bible, I seem to know more about it that they do and I can always get them to the point of admitting that "ah well, that's just allegorical" to which the reply is usually "how do you know which bits are allegorical and which are to be followed?
Not a problem for us Catholics since we believe Tradition is handed on to us with the Bible and some parts of it like First Genesis or the Slaughter of the Canaanites have been interpreted allegorically by the Church Fathers.
Funny your bit sounds like something I would say to them to get them to swim the Tiber so too speak.
>You cannot pick and choose if it is god's true infallible word".
You can if you belong to an ancient & historic Christian Tradition that reject Martin Luther's perspicuity doctrine.
Morning Darth Jim Scott,
You just proved my point! ;-)
I repeat, how do you know which bits are allegorical and which are literal truth? Just because someone in the RCC decides one way or another doesn't count, does it? The bible either is God's word or it isn't. I have studied it for many years, and many years ago too -so correct me if I'm wrong - but there are no parts in the text which state "this bit is allegorical, treat it as an example".
You cannot pick and choose. It's all or nothing I'm afraid.
However, lets not take up all of Robert's blog with theological argument. :-)
Enjoy your life.
Cheers,
Norm.
>You just proved my point! ;-)
I don't see how?
>I repeat, how do you know which bits are allegorical and which are literal truth?
I have a Church with the Authority from God too tell me. Other non-Catholic Christians just go by the seat of their pants which is one of many reasons I reject their beliefs.
>Just because someone in the RCC decides one way or another doesn't count, does it?
Yes it does if I as a Catholic believe Jesus gave the Church the power to bind and loose Matt 18:18 and interpret the Word (2 Thes 3:6).
Your argument shows the folly of private interpretation but only Protestants believe in Private interpretation. Catholics, Orthodox Jews and Eastern Orthodox Christians do not. So your argument is a non-starter. Like finding "errors" in the Bible and expecting oh let's say a Muslim(who believes the Bible contains errors) to care and therefore doubt is own faith because of it.
Sorry about that but there is no "One Size fits all" omni-polemic against Christianity. You have to do the heavy lifting & taylor your arguments to specific faith traditions.
>The bible either is God's word or it isn't. I have studied it for many years, and many years ago too -so correct me if I'm wrong - but there are no parts in the text which state "this bit is allegorical, treat it as an example".
I've studied too.
That is so cute! You are an Atheist who believes in the Protestant Reformation religious Dogmas of Sola Scriptura, Perspecuity and Private interpretation! But isn't it a little silly to judge to my Catholic beliefs by doctrines I reject in the first place? Also you are an Atheist so where do you get off believing in Protestant doctrines?
An Atheist who believes in Protestant doctrines like Sola Scriptura & or Perpecuity? What's next an Agnostic who believes in Transubstantiation? Perhaps a Metaphysical Naturalist and Religious Skeptic who professes Sacraments work Ex opere operato?
I'm sorry no offense but that just sounds silly to me.
>You cannot pick and choose. It's all or nothing I'm afraid.
I don't have too pick and choose. That is the point. Catholics don't use the Bible the way Protestant Fundamentalist do. Yours is an excellent argument against Protestant Fundamentalism. I've used a variation of it myself to try to convert the missionaries to my faith. With some sucess. But it is a non-starter objection for a Catholic Christian.
>However, lets not take up all of Robert's blog with theological argument. :-)
Fine, but if I deny God tomorrow my opinion your argument is a non-starter would still be correct and your argument would still be invalid. You are entitled too your own opinions but not your own facts.
You can't assume Protestant presuppositions about the Bible (i.e. the Bible is clear without Tradition, the Bible is the Sole Rule of Faith etc) as an Atheist and judge Catholicism by it. You in effect have to put on the hat of a Protestant religious apologist and defend a view neither of us believes in the first place.
You in effect you have to try to convert me to Fundamentalist Protestantism before you can make me an Atheist.
Isn't that a tad bit lame? Even if God, God forbid doesn't exist?
Cheers.
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” - Luke 10
The way I see it, nothing is more important than this. God doesn't care if your church wears red hats or blue hats. As long as you love him and love others, every other 'commandment' is more or less optional.
I hate when people argue about where Adam and Eve's children got their spouses from. Who cares! If you put more effort into loving God, instead of bickering finer points that don't matter, you'll go a lot farther.
Morning Darth Jim Scott,
As I mentioned, let's not take up Robert's blog with theological discussion. We can do it elsewhere if you like as you raise some "interesting" arguments.
I don't have to or want to convert you to anything, Protestantism or likewise. I'm not trying to.
I asked a simple question - how do you know what to pick and choose from your holy book to follow, and what to ignore. The Bible is supposed to be God's word, not man's. Your answer, that your church does it for you is moot. The question still stands. Telling me that God tells your Church scholars which bits are literal and which are not merely shifts the problem. Using god to prove god is circular reasoning.
The fact that "you reject the beliefs of non-Catholic religions" stands true, for all the non-Catholic religions too, who reject your Churche's dogmas, doctrines and beliefs. We atheists simply reject all of them - until such time as binding evidence shows otherwise. So in answer to your assertion that I believe in Protestant "stuff" - I don't. Being an Atheist means not believing as there is absolutely no evidence.
And saying to me that the Bible is proof of god, which is usually the response, is nothing more than even more circular reasoning.
In summary, religion is pointless and does no good - other than a few charities who benefit, but don't forget, there are plenty Atheist charities as well - Catholic v Protestant, Christian v Muslim, Muslim v Jew etc etc - you are all fighting over who has the best imaginary friend.
We are all Human. Nothing else matters. Can't we stop fighting (I see N. Ireland has kicked off again for example) and start living together in peace? Like - I'm sure - all the varying gods would expect. Makes perfect sense to Atheists, but apparently not to religions who "reject all the other religions".
Cheers,
Norm.